RRG

How did Ugly Duck and Disturbance begin, are you content with where it’s going, do you have any other plans for it? 

DA

Ugly Duck was initiated by two friends who were looking for a large warehouse to put on an immersive theater project. When they discovered the building we are still in, they convinced the owner to let us stay. That was nearly 10 years ago and from the start it was about sharing this space with other creatives. What we are doing came from a need within the emerging art scene in London for more space to present work. I joined them to take on the artistic direction and tried to create an emphasis on supporting underrepresented voices in the arts with the desire to try out different models as an art organization moving away from the classic gallery or museum model. I feel there is a need for space and support from artists who finished university but not yet signed or exhibited in museums, programmed in theaters or institutions. 

During the pandemic it was hard to continue our support to artists so, as many others, I decided to create an online program that would be recorded live from our space. It was the beginning of @Disturbance which quickly became a popular new program dedicated to support LGBTQIA+ artists. The idea was to blend the frontiers between digital and physical worlds by creating a very slick live stream but also having audiences physically present, having artists perform here and online. 

Sometimes I feel my work is paying off when I see the community coming together or artists thriving but also sometimes I wish I had a bigger team, core funding and a permanent space!

I am amazed that we still have this space, our lease keeps getting extended each time for 3 months so it’s really precarious but we exist within the cracks and loopholes of capitalism we can only make do with what we’ve got. I have managed to get some funding for @Disturbance turning it into a week long development program and online platform and I am waiting to hear on next funding 🤞. 

I feel that at the moment I am receiving more and more positive feedback regarding the program we put on and I really see a community and audience who come to events recurrently so that definitely feels great. 

@DISTURBANCE #3 from Ugly Duck on Vimeo.

DA 

What about you, where do you feel you're at in your career and how do you measure success, what does it mean for you? 

RRG

The meaning of success seems to have changed throughout the years for me. Maybe for a while I was looking at success from a very individualistic standpoint. I felt quite a lot of pressure trying to “make it” in the art world, but also I found myself critically questioning this. London can do that to you I guess? It is easy to start comparing yourself and your success to others, and it’s a pity really. I had quit football, something which I had loved and done for a very long time just because the competitiveness of it all got to me, I felt it became toxic. I didn’t want this to happen with my art, but I was seeing similar patterns emerge and for me this was wrong as much as it was depressing. Of course it is wonderful for one's work to be acknowledged and given the visibility it deserves, but this happens for each and everyone of us at different moments in time, and I think we should be aware of that, stay true to ourselves  and just keep doing what we’re doing at our own pace. As of recently the way I think of my career is a bit different, don’t get me wrong I still fantasise of having my work exhibited in some of my favourite galleries and museums and for it to be visible to a larger audience. Though thinking about it I have collaborated with quite a few artists whom I truly admire and for this I am so grateful. It’s precious. 

Where I feel I’m at in my career –  

I think my expectations of myself a couple years ago would have been very different to my expectations now. All I can say is that I feel content and I guess this is mainly thanks to having had the opportunity to work on Rosa Kwir. It is a small project but it has taught me a lot about myself and helped me define or come closer to what matters most not only for my practice but also for me as a human being. One small thing which for me was quite special last year, was to invite some school kids to visit both the Rosa Kwir project as well as my solo show Mama’s Boy.  I took the opportunity  to talk to them openly, unapologetically, proudly and celebratory about the trans and queer community. It felt close to “this is where I might be happiest in my career”.

RRG

Being a curator and also a producer how do you manage to balance these two out? 

DA

These two go quite well together and Ugly Duck is a small organisation so we all have to multitask quite a bit. 

I curate our yearly creative program where I work closely with artists, collectives or young curators and support them for 2-3 months to put on their project. 

I also create in-house shows that I produce. Again the balance comes from the conviction that not only me should put on exhibition in this place, so the producing part comes more as support for others. I feel busy however I’m also extremely lucky to be able to work in such a creative environment. I constantly meet young artists and feel kind of rewarded when they later exhibit at Tate or V&A  (Which happens a few times recently)

I think onward I am moving towards doing more art direction and curatorial projects but producing is always a very important skill for those jobs and also I mean I can get involved in other projects such as Kallida music festival or East African Soul Train  for example. 

RRG

We also spoke about the hostility that trans people are facing in the world atm from media, healthcare, government…  but also on the other hand we are seeing the rise of trans and non-binary  people finding the courage to come out.

How has the internet helped with creating environments for our communities to seek help from each other and create safe spaces for us to get advice and support especially when for many of us it is impossible to get any of this due to misinformation, gatekeeping and transphobic attitudes?

DA

We can observe links between the birth of the internet and other technology and the liberation of expression of more fluid gender identities. Whether it being the concept of avatars that offered a certain freedom of expression, the exploration of meta data and complex coding allowing space for deconstruction of gender binary or simply for the formation of online communities to provide the missing information. 

Internet did also create a platform for the most horrific fascist, homophobic and transphobic content to be shared, but it has also bringing queer people together. I got so much advice and support for my top surgery online - it creates such a powerful network especially for those who live outside of big cities. 

This online support has a limit and when it comes to healthcare this work shouldnt be and can’t, it’s often very case by case, be carried by the community itself. Or maybe it should but then we need access to more funding and support. I would love to see more and more LGBTQ Community center in London, or spaces like 56 Dean Street.

With Ugly Duck we are collaborating with Kisesis collective, a transgender, non-binary creative collective led by artists and activists to host a weekly book club. It is also a way to create a network for trans people, something different from the party scene creates an environment where people can also exchange advice, share experiences etc. I’d love to see more of that, we are forging a new world via our bodies and identities and we individually really need to be supported. 

I am actually part of a research group called Trans-net that is looking at imagining a better, queerer internet. 

RRG

From what I understand your art practice's main focus is exactly this to provide a platform that prioritises people who have for the majority part of it been ignored or given way less visibility and acknowledgement than they deserve,   and  most importantly of all you do this with a lot of sensitivity and care. 

DA

Thank you, this is at least what I am aiming at doing ! I am also working on my own practice preparing a lecture performance for September and  other gender based research and photography projects. 

RRG

This research Trans-net sounds ace, can you tell me more about it? 

DA

It’s called 'Transfeminist Web Working Group” and it’s an independent research-working group with transfeminist, anticolonial, ecological and anticapitalist principles exploring, imagining and creating alternatives for our digital (after)lives. It was initiated by Giulia Casalini in order to address the constant struggles that many of us dealing with bodies, gender, sexuality have experienced in the digital realm. 

We meet to discuss, explore and imagine alternative social media, conceptualize safe internet providers, open online spaces with interesting graphics, places to meet and talk, organise without our personal data being stolen or spied on, without shadow ban, without censorship of diverse bodies etc. It’s only been a few times 

RRG

I think it is important  for these online communities to exist. It could be very lonely and quite difficult to navigate the world  as a trans, non-binary person if  platforms / groups of this sort didn’t exist. But sometimes I question how easy it is to stumble upon these particular platforms. Often these groups are closed/private, which means that one would already need to have some links. If not, it’s very likely that your first  google search will lead you to the dark abyss filled with hidden layers of  transphobia, misinformation and the big D (detransitioning) and it wouldn’t be  Detransition Baby that appears.

I learnt a lot about anything trans through books and the internet, but this also happens to be my research area and passion, so somehow I have quite a clear direction of what I am looking for. I have learnt way more about medically transitioning through online resources + books  than through my endocrinologist. These communities are crucial for many of us, however as you say, this shouldn’t be our responsibility. We need the healthcare system to provide us with all the information and care that we need. I am part of The Trans Men FB group in Malta. I feel it is used as a functional tool rather than a socialising one. Members use it to talk and ask questions  about legal and medical stuff. We all go to the same gender clinic and so it is actually really helpful. I had joined another group called ‘Unpacked’ . This is a social space for transmasculine-aligned people to discuss media, our identities and our experiences with one another. The first time I joined it I realised how important it is for spaces like this to exist. I, as a trans-masc person, crave to be in the company of other trans-masc people, especially when our interests align. 

Through social media mainly IG I have met really cool trans-masc aligned people who are brilliant artists/writers/activists etc… For me this is the best of both worlds and it feels exciting.

Talking of Gendernauts, have you watched the film by Monika Treut? I watched it again recently and I love it every time. It’s 23 years old already!

RRG

I feel that any work that I make will very likely have no boundaries when it comes to sharing personal stories. I think there was such a long time in my life where I didn’t express anything I was unable to share any feelings (it was all a secret, I would not have been allowed to share what was going on inside of my head) when I discovered art this started changing, I started slowly putting myself out there, working with these vulnerabilities. I think it felt strange for many people (in particular those who knew me) including myself to start making work in this way, because I was known to be a very shy and discreet person. But somewhere inside me had an urge to get all of this out in all its rawness and truest. I feel the use of poetry is what creates a space for this secret garden to exist as well as  allows this certain intimacy you mention to bloom/grow. I guess part of me does think about it (and this is when there is someone else involved which isn’t me) but also all the work I make really takes off from writing, and this part of my practice is where I am the most authentic maybe. What I have been trying to think about since I have been making work is how to be less literal, so as to leave a room/space for imagination as well as make space for an alternative interpretation for those who relate or feel a connection with what I am saying, but then can wonder / drift off to their own personal journeys.