Mikolaj: Being vocal about the current politics - or to be more precise - the need for change, is the only thing that keeps me making art with my full engagement. The belief that this is where I can be heard. And being heard is such a privilege nowadays. I would never forgive myself if I gave up the chance to speak up about the situation for sexual and national minorities, not only in Poland, but everywhere we experience phobias (eg. Homophobia). This is something that constantly motivates me to continue - even though my political engagement brought me to the darkest places of my life. But here is where I believe in the “Phoenix Syndrome” - you can only fly out of the fire when you first burn down to ashes all the crap that was blocking you. Starting from ego’s “I should/ I shouldn’t”

I say here: “me, my” but in fact, art is the result of team work and the enormous support of friends. It’s necessary to emphasise this. Our art has no power without extra pairs of eyes.

Rafal: Absolutely! To have any platform to voice your ideas is such a privilege. I mean, being an artist is a privilege - in the sense of having time to dedicate a life to it and not work another job. However, I wonder how many people with ideologies so different from ours actually listen? I’m thinking about how so many people with phobias don’t engage with contemporary art. How art as a discourse has been so censored in Poland - most recently and shockingly with the appointment of Piotr Bernatowicz as the director of CSW in Warsaw. Do you not feel sometimes that’s it’s preaching in an echo chamber? Do you think it’s important to engage with these issues outside of the art world and explore new ways to be an activist to these important causes?

Mikolaj: I recently had a story with Piotr Bernatowicz. I was invited to do a guided tour in the Ujazdowski Castle Contemporary Art Center in Warsaw, where he is the infamous alt-rightwing director. I spoke about queer movements and the history of marriage - what a “traditional family” - the conservatives’ key concept - actually means. At exactly the same time, in the same institution, he had planned his public discussion on gender where he said “In the term ‘LGBT+’, this plus means in.al. zoophilia.” So - I had my visitors, he had his. But that’s their strategy - polarising, segregating. I am completely fed up with it and see it as a reason for the modern cataclysm we can see in politics, ecology and economics. Which is why I don’t have an ambition to talk to those who fundamentally disagree with us. I want to talk to people who simply want to talk. And talking means dialogue - maybe even a hard one; maybe an argument. I desire to know their reasons and to understand. 

That is why I think it is also extremely important to be engaged in all those issues outside of the art world too. Reach new perspectives. Again, one pair of eyes is not enough: but when we look at the world with more and more pairs of eyes, then we can identify a problem and it’s reasons much more efficiently. We can also better protect ourselves by seeing the enemy behind us. I like this vision of activism as creature consisting of multiple eyes. 

Rafal: And lastly (if we are on the subject of multiplicity), you often collaborate with others: how important is this process for you?

Mikolaj: It is a crucial process for me! I realised this very deeply during lockdown this year. From the first naive enthusiasm of having so much time just for making art, I quickly found that making art alone; without  collaboration, without exchanging ideas, without intellectual stimulation and with an extra financial struggle, is almost impossible! I was getting extremely passive, melancholic, empty minded. And here - I am coming again to this multiple-eyed figure. Without collaboration, my steps are tiny. I get tired and burnt out so quickly. We dare more in the collaboration. Through supporting for example — like discussions and sending inspiring stuff to each other; but also emotionally cheering each other up, sharing responsibility, commenting on new works. Most of all however, just by making works together: we feel much stronger; do much more interesting things than when just being “me, myself and I”. Even my individual works (like paintings) are much richer when other people are involved in the intellectual process of painting them.